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	<title>Comments on: Responses to the John Gray situation</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/</link>
	<description>Estd. in Ireland, July 2002</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: JBL</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2113</link>
		<dc:creator>JBL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2113</guid>
		<description>There is no way you will be found to have committed libel under these circumstances -- it's notoriously difficult to win a libel case.  Really, in America, threatening to sue for libel is only a bully tactic for people who don't want to go through the effort of winning a court case.  Frankly, it would probably hurt his reputation more to have the case then to not.  I say ignore him.  Or try and get a lot of bloggers to make fun of him :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no way you will be found to have committed libel under these circumstances &#8212; it&#8217;s notoriously difficult to win a libel case.  Really, in America, threatening to sue for libel is only a bully tactic for people who don&#8217;t want to go through the effort of winning a court case.  Frankly, it would probably hurt his reputation more to have the case then to not.  I say ignore him.  Or try and get a lot of bloggers to make fun of him :)</p>
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		<title>By: Watchful Babbler</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2114</link>
		<dc:creator>Watchful Babbler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2114</guid>
		<description>Under American law, a conviction for libel would be very unlikely regardless the facts of the case, given Gray's status as a public figure. However, if you are blogging from Ireland, a suit could be filed in Irish court. Since, as I am given to understand, there is no statutory definition of libel in Irish law, the bar for libel is set by common law and judicial dicta, which tend not to treat public figures differently than private. 

However, your basic charge -- that Gray did not graduate from any accredited universities -- is true, if the secondary sources are to be believed. The truth, as has been pointed out, is by definition a valid defense against all libel charges.

You should, in any case, consult a lawyer in the event a suit is filed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Under American law, a conviction for libel would be very unlikely regardless the facts of the case, given Gray&#8217;s status as a public figure. However, if you are blogging from Ireland, a suit could be filed in Irish court. Since, as I am given to understand, there is no statutory definition of libel in Irish law, the bar for libel is set by common law and judicial dicta, which tend not to treat public figures differently than private. </p>
<p>However, your basic charge &#8212; that Gray did not graduate from any accredited universities &#8212; is true, if the secondary sources are to be believed. The truth, as has been pointed out, is by definition a valid defense against all libel charges.</p>
<p>You should, in any case, consult a lawyer in the event a suit is filed.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2115</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2115</guid>
		<description>I posted this over on Kevin Drum's site, but I figured I should post it here so you can see it directly (apologies for the redundancy for people coming here from that site).
---
There's only one possible response. Ask "Doctor" Gray to demonstrate levitation to you personally. If he can perform yogic levitation then you will accept his "advanced degree" from Maharishi Research University as valid.

I am absolutely not kidding. I live about 25 miles from Fairfield, Iowa, the home of Maharishi University. I deal with delusional Maharishi cultists all the time. All their advanced degrees involve instruction in levitation. I have a video from local news showing the alleged "levitiation," if there's enough interest, I'll put it up on my blog. Suffice to say it is not levitation unless you consider flapping your arms hard enough to lift your butt a couple inches off the ground to be "levitation."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I posted this over on Kevin Drum&#8217;s site, but I figured I should post it here so you can see it directly (apologies for the redundancy for people coming here from that site).<br />
&#8212;<br />
There&#8217;s only one possible response. Ask &#8220;Doctor&#8221; Gray to demonstrate levitation to you personally. If he can perform yogic levitation then you will accept his &#8220;advanced degree&#8221; from Maharishi Research University as valid.</p>
<p>I am absolutely not kidding. I live about 25 miles from Fairfield, Iowa, the home of Maharishi University. I deal with delusional Maharishi cultists all the time. All their advanced degrees involve instruction in levitation. I have a video from local news showing the alleged &#8220;levitiation,&#8221; if there&#8217;s enough interest, I&#8217;ll put it up on my blog. Suffice to say it is not levitation unless you consider flapping your arms hard enough to lift your butt a couple inches off the ground to be &#8220;levitation.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Johnnie C.</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2116</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnnie C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2116</guid>
		<description>Gavin:

Gray is an goddamn idiot and his "advanced degrees" are pure shite.

My advice (as a friend, not as an attorney, tho I happen to be one):

1) Stop posting your own analysis of what you said.  That will only get used against you.

2) Your view that Gray is a fraud is completely reasonable and supportable given the fact that Gray has inflated his credentials.  Has Gray made it clear on his bullshit books that his stupid colllege was for morons who couldn't get into real colleges?  That his lame ass college was closed down when California passed a bona fide accredidation law?  Of course not.  He wants people to believe he is intelligent.  But he's not.

3) Gray is a fraud.  There is I said.  Fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud.  Go ahead and sue me Gray.  Then not only bloggers but THE WHOLE COUNTRY will find out that your diplomas are worth less than used toilet paper.

4) I'd like to add that Hoagland guy who writes that garbage about NASA conspiracies etc. to my list of fraudulent nincumpoops which is headed by Mr. Gray.  Hoagland is a lying idiot who makes shit up to get attention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gavin:</p>
<p>Gray is an goddamn idiot and his &#8220;advanced degrees&#8221; are pure shite.</p>
<p>My advice (as a friend, not as an attorney, tho I happen to be one):</p>
<p>1) Stop posting your own analysis of what you said.  That will only get used against you.</p>
<p>2) Your view that Gray is a fraud is completely reasonable and supportable given the fact that Gray has inflated his credentials.  Has Gray made it clear on his bullshit books that his stupid colllege was for morons who couldn&#8217;t get into real colleges?  That his lame ass college was closed down when California passed a bona fide accredidation law?  Of course not.  He wants people to believe he is intelligent.  But he&#8217;s not.</p>
<p>3) Gray is a fraud.  There is I said.  Fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud.  Go ahead and sue me Gray.  Then not only bloggers but THE WHOLE COUNTRY will find out that your diplomas are worth less than used toilet paper.</p>
<p>4) I&#8217;d like to add that Hoagland guy who writes that garbage about NASA conspiracies etc. to my list of fraudulent nincumpoops which is headed by Mr. Gray.  Hoagland is a lying idiot who makes shit up to get attention.</p>
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		<title>By: Calton Bolick</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2117</link>
		<dc:creator>Calton Bolick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2117</guid>
		<description>Might I point out that there is a difference between "recognized" and "accredited", at least when it comes to US institutions of higher learning? 

As far as I know, "recognized" is a meaningless term: the important term is "accredited", meaning that the institution has been certified by one of the six regional accreditation agencies as offering a higher-education degree (in the case of California, the Western Association of Schools &#038; Colleges).

Columbia Pacific University was always non-accredited, and was shut down by the State of California as a "diploma mill". You have nothing to apologize for, in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Might I point out that there is a difference between &#8220;recognized&#8221; and &#8220;accredited&#8221;, at least when it comes to US institutions of higher learning? </p>
<p>As far as I know, &#8220;recognized&#8221; is a meaningless term: the important term is &#8220;accredited&#8221;, meaning that the institution has been certified by one of the six regional accreditation agencies as offering a higher-education degree (in the case of California, the Western Association of Schools &#038; Colleges).</p>
<p>Columbia Pacific University was always non-accredited, and was shut down by the State of California as a &#8220;diploma mill&#8221;. You have nothing to apologize for, in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: peter jung</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2118</link>
		<dc:creator>peter jung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2118</guid>
		<description>Gavin,

Kevin Drum is blogging about this situation over at his new site hosted by Washington Monthly.  

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/

My prediction--  As news of this snafu spreads around the blogosphere, Mr. Gray and his attorneys will quickly come to the conclusion that this thing is going to cause them more trouble and embarassment than it's worth....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gavin,</p>
<p>Kevin Drum is blogging about this situation over at his new site hosted by Washington Monthly.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/</a></p>
<p>My prediction&#8211;  As news of this snafu spreads around the blogosphere, Mr. Gray and his attorneys will quickly come to the conclusion that this thing is going to cause them more trouble and embarassment than it&#8217;s worth&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2119</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2119</guid>
		<description>I came across this page while searching for something else.  Gray's lawyers contacted CultNews.com back in November 2003: http://www.cultnews.com/archives/000699.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I came across this page while searching for something else.  Gray&#8217;s lawyers contacted CultNews.com back in November 2003: <a href="http://www.cultnews.com/archives/000699.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cultnews.com/archives/000699.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: BadTux</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2120</link>
		<dc:creator>BadTux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2120</guid>
		<description>Okay, first things first: Jurisdiction. To have jurisdiction in California court, Mr. Gray  must prove that a) the  supposedly defamatory remarks were published in the state of California, and b) the supposedly defamatory remarks caused damage to Mr. Gray in the state of California, and c) Mr. Gray or the publisher of the defamatory remarks maintains ties to the state of California such that California could legitimately claim jurisdiction (i.e., Mr. Gray lives in California or his corporation is based in California). Without all three of those, a California court will throw it out on jurisdictional grounds.

Unfortunately, it does appear that Mr. Gray lives in California, so  a case in California court would be applicable.

Okay, assuming Mr. Gray decides to file a claim in a California court, there's two possibilities: Either the claim is countered, or it is defaulted. If defaulted, Mr. Gray wins, and will be granted a judgment, presumably some amount of money. 

If Mr. Gray  wins, he then must apply with an Irish court for enforcement of said judgement, unless you possess property or wages within the United States that the California court could seize to satisfy the judgement. His chances of getting a favorable hearing from an Irish court depends upon whatever reciprocal judgement agreements exist between Ireland and the United States, and upon whether the facts of the case, as presented by the U.S. court as part of the judgement, would consist of protected conduct under Irish law. Judgements in foreign venues which would punish conduct protected under local laws are generally not recognized by the courts of a country. In addition, if it is conduct that Irish courts consider to not have been under the jurisdiction of California, they may take it upon themselves to disregard the judgement. For example, if Irish law says that web pages are published in the location that the writer lives and that all actions must take place in said venue, an Irish court may decide that a judgement in another venue is not enforcible.

Now, I am not a lawyer in any country, much less Ireland. But I would first contact an Irish lawyer to find out whether a California judgement for libel would be enforced by an Irish court. If not, then you can treat the issue with the disdain it deserves (as long as you never intend to possess property or employment within the boundaries of the United States, at which point the California court could directly enforce its judgement by seizing said property or garnishing said wages). If it would be enforcible, on the other hand,  then things become more iffy. 

The international aspects of the Internet sure make things entertaining on the legal front, don't they?! As an American, a judgement for libel against me in an Irish court would be utterly unenforcible. American courts have repeatedly ruled that rights granted to us by our Constitution are not subject to removal by American courts at the behest of a foreign power. Since I have no property or connection to Ireland, the Irish court would be most probably reject the case out of hand anyhow as a waste of time (since they'd know that even if the plaintiff won, the judgement would be utterly unenforcible).  California courts, on the other hand, will accept a lawsuit against a ham sandwich. The question of whether that is a problem for you depends upon whether an Irish court would enforce said judgement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, first things first: Jurisdiction. To have jurisdiction in California court, Mr. Gray  must prove that a) the  supposedly defamatory remarks were published in the state of California, and b) the supposedly defamatory remarks caused damage to Mr. Gray in the state of California, and c) Mr. Gray or the publisher of the defamatory remarks maintains ties to the state of California such that California could legitimately claim jurisdiction (i.e., Mr. Gray lives in California or his corporation is based in California). Without all three of those, a California court will throw it out on jurisdictional grounds.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, it does appear that Mr. Gray lives in California, so  a case in California court would be applicable.</p>
<p>Okay, assuming Mr. Gray decides to file a claim in a California court, there&#8217;s two possibilities: Either the claim is countered, or it is defaulted. If defaulted, Mr. Gray wins, and will be granted a judgment, presumably some amount of money. </p>
<p>If Mr. Gray  wins, he then must apply with an Irish court for enforcement of said judgement, unless you possess property or wages within the United States that the California court could seize to satisfy the judgement. His chances of getting a favorable hearing from an Irish court depends upon whatever reciprocal judgement agreements exist between Ireland and the United States, and upon whether the facts of the case, as presented by the U.S. court as part of the judgement, would consist of protected conduct under Irish law. Judgements in foreign venues which would punish conduct protected under local laws are generally not recognized by the courts of a country. In addition, if it is conduct that Irish courts consider to not have been under the jurisdiction of California, they may take it upon themselves to disregard the judgement. For example, if Irish law says that web pages are published in the location that the writer lives and that all actions must take place in said venue, an Irish court may decide that a judgement in another venue is not enforcible.</p>
<p>Now, I am not a lawyer in any country, much less Ireland. But I would first contact an Irish lawyer to find out whether a California judgement for libel would be enforced by an Irish court. If not, then you can treat the issue with the disdain it deserves (as long as you never intend to possess property or employment within the boundaries of the United States, at which point the California court could directly enforce its judgement by seizing said property or garnishing said wages). If it would be enforcible, on the other hand,  then things become more iffy. </p>
<p>The international aspects of the Internet sure make things entertaining on the legal front, don&#8217;t they?! As an American, a judgement for libel against me in an Irish court would be utterly unenforcible. American courts have repeatedly ruled that rights granted to us by our Constitution are not subject to removal by American courts at the behest of a foreign power. Since I have no property or connection to Ireland, the Irish court would be most probably reject the case out of hand anyhow as a waste of time (since they&#8217;d know that even if the plaintiff won, the judgement would be utterly unenforcible).  California courts, on the other hand, will accept a lawsuit against a ham sandwich. The question of whether that is a problem for you depends upon whether an Irish court would enforce said judgement.</p>
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		<title>By: BadTux</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2121</link>
		<dc:creator>BadTux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2121</guid>
		<description>Someone else brought up another issue: Where is your website hosted? If hosted within the jurisdiction of a California court, it could be hit with an injunction shutting it down. If that's Gray's purpose, he will "win" even if never able to enforce any judgement against you in Ireland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone else brought up another issue: Where is your website hosted? If hosted within the jurisdiction of a California court, it could be hit with an injunction shutting it down. If that&#8217;s Gray&#8217;s purpose, he will &#8220;win&#8221; even if never able to enforce any judgement against you in Ireland.</p>
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		<title>By: skippy</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2122</link>
		<dc:creator>skippy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2122</guid>
		<description>dr. gray may want to send out cease and desist letters to:

cultnews.com at www.rickross.com/reference/gray/gray2.html

buzz.weblogs.com at http://buzz.weblogs.com/2003/11/14

about.com at http://atheism.about.com/b/a/2003_11_15.htm?iam=metaiq&#038;terms=richmond+va+police+report

and espeically the society for industrial and organizational psychology at http://siop.org/tip/backissues/tipoct98/9Waclawski.htm, which might carry some weight in your defense.

all of whom are simply reporting the same facts as you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dr. gray may want to send out cease and desist letters to:</p>
<p>cultnews.com at <a href="http://www.rickross.com/reference/gray/gray2.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.rickross.com/reference/gray/gray2.html</a></p>
<p>buzz.weblogs.com at <a href="http://buzz.weblogs.com/2003/11/14" rel="nofollow">http://buzz.weblogs.com/2003/11/14</a></p>
<p>about.com at <a href="http://atheism.about.com/b/a/2003_11_15.htm?iam=metaiq&#038;terms=richmond+va+police+report" rel="nofollow">http://atheism.about.com/b/a/2003_11_15.htm?iam=metaiq&#038;terms=richmond+va+police+report</a></p>
<p>and espeically the society for industrial and organizational psychology at <a href="http://siop.org/tip/backissues/tipoct98/9Waclawski.htm" rel="nofollow">http://siop.org/tip/backissues/tipoct98/9Waclawski.htm</a>, which might carry some weight in your defense.</p>
<p>all of whom are simply reporting the same facts as you.</p>
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		<title>By: Backword Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2123</link>
		<dc:creator>Backword Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2123</guid>
		<description>Gray seems to have anticipated this. He doesn't mention his undergradaute degree, and I have some difficulty in believing that a "highly respected school" would ever be forced to close.
I don't understand California law, but Gray's site links to http://www.bppve.ca.gov/press_releases/cpuweb_dec2000.htm which mentions, but doesn't link to http://www.bppve.ca.gov/press_releases/cputime.htm which says

The initial Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education Reform Act of 1989 went into effect in 1991. Columbia Pacific University (CPU) was given "grandfather" status as an approved, degree-granting institution.
CPU subsequently submitted its first application for approval to the Council for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education (Council), the predecessor agency of the Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education (Bureau).
After a comprehensive review and assessment, the Council denied CPU's application on numerous grounds on December 15, 1996. CPU appealed that denial. During the pendency of the appeal, CPU was legally permitted to continue its operations
Following an evidentiary administrative hearing, an independent administrative law judge upheld the Council's denial. A final decision and order of denial was issued by the Council on or about June 25, 1997.

From this, my guess is that there was no law controlling rogue universities prior to 1989, and that extant institutions were granted approved status pending a review. CPU failed its first and only review. So technically, and I stress this is guess work, there were no recognised (by current criteria) institutions prior to 1989. CPU was never "well respected".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gray seems to have anticipated this. He doesn&#8217;t mention his undergradaute degree, and I have some difficulty in believing that a &#8220;highly respected school&#8221; would ever be forced to close.<br />
I don&#8217;t understand California law, but Gray&#8217;s site links to <a href="http://www.bppve.ca.gov/press_releases/cpuweb_dec2000.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bppve.ca.gov/press_releases/cpuweb_dec2000.htm</a> which mentions, but doesn&#8217;t link to <a href="http://www.bppve.ca.gov/press_releases/cputime.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bppve.ca.gov/press_releases/cputime.htm</a> which says</p>
<p>The initial Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education Reform Act of 1989 went into effect in 1991. Columbia Pacific University (CPU) was given &#8220;grandfather&#8221; status as an approved, degree-granting institution.<br />
CPU subsequently submitted its first application for approval to the Council for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education (Council), the predecessor agency of the Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education (Bureau).<br />
After a comprehensive review and assessment, the Council denied CPU&#8217;s application on numerous grounds on December 15, 1996. CPU appealed that denial. During the pendency of the appeal, CPU was legally permitted to continue its operations<br />
Following an evidentiary administrative hearing, an independent administrative law judge upheld the Council&#8217;s denial. A final decision and order of denial was issued by the Council on or about June 25, 1997.</p>
<p>From this, my guess is that there was no law controlling rogue universities prior to 1989, and that extant institutions were granted approved status pending a review. CPU failed its first and only review. So technically, and I stress this is guess work, there were no recognised (by current criteria) institutions prior to 1989. CPU was never &#8220;well respected&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Betteridge</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2124</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Betteridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2124</guid>
		<description>Gavin, take a look at that piece you reference at the bottom. Note that what's being called into question isn't Gray, but the worth - NOT validity - of Gray's degree. That's fine. What you can't do is say he is intentionally deceiving people UNLESS you have evidence that he is doing so. If you had an email from him saying "yeah, it was a plan all along to get a cheap off the shelf degree and make millions" you'd have a case for calling him a fraud. But you haven't. 

The Inside Edition piece is a fine example of how to tread the line carefully. Take a look at this bit:

Ross recently wrote an article noting that Gray's bachelors and masters degrees were received from the Maharishi Educational Research Center in Switzerland. The Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the counselor to the Beatles in the 70s, founded the now defunct school. Higher education associations in the United States do not recognize degrees from the school. Inside Edition has also confirmed that the best-selling author’s Ph.D. was obtained from the Columbia Pacific University in Northern California, which is a correspondence school that has since been shut down by the State of California for allegedly selling worthless diplomas.

All facts: and facts can't be libellous. Caling him a fraud, though, isn't an established fact - and neither can you defend yourself by saying "some people believe" he's a fraud - repeat a defamation is not protected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gavin, take a look at that piece you reference at the bottom. Note that what&#8217;s being called into question isn&#8217;t Gray, but the worth - NOT validity - of Gray&#8217;s degree. That&#8217;s fine. What you can&#8217;t do is say he is intentionally deceiving people UNLESS you have evidence that he is doing so. If you had an email from him saying &#8220;yeah, it was a plan all along to get a cheap off the shelf degree and make millions&#8221; you&#8217;d have a case for calling him a fraud. But you haven&#8217;t. </p>
<p>The Inside Edition piece is a fine example of how to tread the line carefully. Take a look at this bit:</p>
<p>Ross recently wrote an article noting that Gray&#8217;s bachelors and masters degrees were received from the Maharishi Educational Research Center in Switzerland. The Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the counselor to the Beatles in the 70s, founded the now defunct school. Higher education associations in the United States do not recognize degrees from the school. Inside Edition has also confirmed that the best-selling author’s Ph.D. was obtained from the Columbia Pacific University in Northern California, which is a correspondence school that has since been shut down by the State of California for allegedly selling worthless diplomas.</p>
<p>All facts: and facts can&#8217;t be libellous. Caling him a fraud, though, isn&#8217;t an established fact - and neither can you defend yourself by saying &#8220;some people believe&#8221; he&#8217;s a fraud - repeat a defamation is not protected.</p>
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		<title>By: jack yerbody</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2125</link>
		<dc:creator>jack yerbody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2125</guid>
		<description>This whole debacle raises an important issue re blogging in general. When it is so simple to link to a story on another website, or to cut and paste into your own, unless you actually bother to check what you're linking to you run the risk of repeating a libel - thus making a libellous statement yourself. Some modicum of journalistic integrity (and perhaps five minutes work) could have rejigged the original story into something that wouldnt result in legal action.

The guy DOES have the degrees he claims; all the bullshit above about whether or not they are credible degrees is missing the point by quite a large margin. As mentioned, the only defence to libel is truth and it is UNTRUE to say that he doesnt hold a BA or MA. What you should have identified is that, for such a famous author, you wouldn't have expected them to come from the equivalent of the Correspondence College of Tampa.

From my reading of it, you are prima facie guilty of repeating a libel and are thus fucked. Do yourself a favour and retract your post, apologise, then post an ACCURATE statement of the facts - the guy is a charlatan in that his degrees aren't worth the paper they are laser-printed on. If you'd bothered your arse in the first place, you wouldn't have got into this mess.

Blogging is an excellent way of allowing people with no journalistic training or experience to reach a wide audience. But without a working knowledge of the legal framework that the professionals operate within, situations like this will occur with increasing regularity. Might I recommend a copy of McNae's Essential Law for Journalists, or the Irish equivalent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole debacle raises an important issue re blogging in general. When it is so simple to link to a story on another website, or to cut and paste into your own, unless you actually bother to check what you&#8217;re linking to you run the risk of repeating a libel - thus making a libellous statement yourself. Some modicum of journalistic integrity (and perhaps five minutes work) could have rejigged the original story into something that wouldnt result in legal action.</p>
<p>The guy DOES have the degrees he claims; all the bullshit above about whether or not they are credible degrees is missing the point by quite a large margin. As mentioned, the only defence to libel is truth and it is UNTRUE to say that he doesnt hold a BA or MA. What you should have identified is that, for such a famous author, you wouldn&#8217;t have expected them to come from the equivalent of the Correspondence College of Tampa.</p>
<p>From my reading of it, you are prima facie guilty of repeating a libel and are thus fucked. Do yourself a favour and retract your post, apologise, then post an ACCURATE statement of the facts - the guy is a charlatan in that his degrees aren&#8217;t worth the paper they are laser-printed on. If you&#8217;d bothered your arse in the first place, you wouldn&#8217;t have got into this mess.</p>
<p>Blogging is an excellent way of allowing people with no journalistic training or experience to reach a wide audience. But without a working knowledge of the legal framework that the professionals operate within, situations like this will occur with increasing regularity. Might I recommend a copy of McNae&#8217;s Essential Law for Journalists, or the Irish equivalent?</p>
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		<title>By: Phoenix Woman</title>
		<link>http://www.gavinsblog.com/2004/03/18/responses-to-the-john-gray-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-2126</link>
		<dc:creator>Phoenix Woman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gavinsblog.com/?p=969#comment-2126</guid>
		<description>Gavin, my advice to you is to tell Mr. John Gray to Bring It On.

If this lady can go after him and not be sued, you can, too: 
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/women_rebuttal_from_uranus/welcome.htm

Keep it up!  Believe me, the longer this goes on, the uglier it gets for him.  Do NOT cave to him!  He's just trying to scare you.  Make him pay -- expose his past!

In order to 'prove' his case, he's going to have to submit to the 'discovery' process (which essentially involves having interested parties root through the darkest corners of his life), and he does NOT want this stuff to get noised about.  I've done some crusing of the Net on him, and it looks like having a bogus degree is the LEAST of his sins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gavin, my advice to you is to tell Mr. John Gray to Bring It On.</p>
<p>If this lady can go after him and not be sued, you can, too:<br />
<a href="http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/women_rebuttal_from_uranus/welcome.htm" rel="nofollow">http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/women_rebuttal_from_uranus/welcome.htm</a></p>
<p>Keep it up!  Believe me, the longer this goes on, the uglier it gets for him.  Do NOT cave to him!  He&#8217;s just trying to scare you.  Make him pay &#8212; expose his past!</p>
<p>In order to &#8216;prove&#8217; his case, he&#8217;s going to have to submit to the &#8216;discovery&#8217; process (which essentially involves having interested parties root through the darkest corners of his life), and he does NOT want this stuff to get noised about.  I&#8217;ve done some crusing of the Net on him, and it looks like having a bogus degree is the LEAST of his sins.</p>
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